Duffy ([info]jduffy1535) wrote,
@ 2005-03-24 16:56:00
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A few thoughts on the Schiavo situation.
The part of me that doesn't believe in coincidence sees meaning in the fact that the Holy Week news cycle has been dominated by a woman, unable to communicate or swallow, slowly starving to death.

I feel that we are making too much of Terry Schiavo's life, but perhaps America needs to take moral lessons where it finds them. This is a situation where the law seems to be (I can only assume, as the various judges seem to be unanimous) clear, but at odds with our (at least my) instinct for mercy. Terry's husband has been trying to rid himself of his wife for the last 15 years. His interpretation of his wife's will is based on the thinnest of pretexts. But the law is not written in such a way as to discriminate between a good husband and an evil one. Much as almost 2000 years ago the law did not discriminate between a thief and the Man whose death at the hands of the state we will celebrate tomorrow.

Whoever comes to Him will not hunger, whoever believes in Him will not thirst. Terry will soon be beyond our power to help. Perhaps we will now look as a nation at the morality of allowing anyone to be starved to death, to put them out of our misery. We have been moving slowly toward the acceptance of euthanasia, maybe this will help us move away from it.



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[info]fuzzyamy
2005-03-25 01:33 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure where I stand on the issue - I just wanted to state my uncertainty - but I thought you might find this article interesting.

Particularly: "The church doctrine, and it’s been consistent for 400 years, is that one is not morally obliged to undergo any intervention. And, of course, 400 years ago they weren’t talking about high technology. Here’s the example one of the moralists of the 16th century gave: if you could sustain your life with partridge eggs, which were very expensive and exotic, would you be obliged to do so? The answer is no, they’re too expensive. They’re too rare. You can’t get them. They would be too heavy an obligation to put on people...

[The Pope] said even such things as artificial nutrition and fluid can become extraordinary if they become burdensome when you have to sustain somebody for 15 years on it. That’s surely burdensome. It has nothing to do with the technique itself. Antibiotics could be extraordinary if a patient is dying and it’s not going to offer many benefits. The bishops of Florida themselves have addressed this issue of the papal statement. Right-to-lifers aren’t attacking this Jesuit priest, me; they’re now attacking all the bishops of Florida saying they are deviating from the pope. What the right-to-lifers want to say is the pope said you must always use artificial nutrition and fluids for patients in persistent vegetative state—and there’s no exception. The Florida bishops say that’s not what the church has taught and that’s surely not what this means.

**********

Certainly this doesn't make or break the issue for me, but it is interesting. So is the fact that the Pope has no known living will.

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[info]lschiere
2005-03-25 02:39 am UTC (link)
okay, something finally motivated me to take up Ederlyn's advice to create an account just so I can comment on posts here. I haven't been incredibly motivated to do so since I've been using my own home-brew software, which is sufficient to my minimal needs. anyway. It is incredibly sad how so often the academics here, even priests, will minimize everything we believe.

secondly, *perhaps* you could claim that, over the course of 15 years, the feeding tube has become burdensome. But look at the following: he won a huge settlement 7 or 8 years ago, the money from which he claimed at the time would go to taking care of her. to-date, that money has only been used to pay for the lawyer who is representing his efforts to end her life.[1]

thirdly, say it was burdensome to him. He isn't being asked to do it, the parents want to take over, to take on guardianship of her. and her siblings have stepped forward to take over when they no longer can.

fourth, when he was fighting that law suite, he wanted to keep her alive. then he got involved with some other woman, and started a family with her, and all of a sudden his opinions changed, and he "remembered" that she'd not want to live in that state. a state she'd been in for a number of years at that point. sound suspicious to you? it does to me.

fifth. there is evidence from several doctors, from several of the nurses who work at that hospice, and from the family (except her husband) to the effect that she can swallow some. no one in a "persistent vegetative state" can swallow at all. regardless of whether or not you can understand the tapes of her, it really doesn't matter: no one in a "persistent vegetative state" can make even that much noise. why are the courts unwilling to consider this evidence?

sixth: recently we have several studies showing people in similar states have drastically different scan results when hearing the voice of someone they know.[2] but no such test has been done on Terri. why does the husband not want to let such tests occur?

seventh: we have testimony from people who have been in "persistent vegetative states" who, though "vegetative" for considerably less time, unexpectedly improved.[3][4][5][6][others] why are we not considering that in deciding her case?

mmm. I could probably come up with more points, but that's enough for now. I've been asking these sorts of questions, as have other bloggers, for some time now. no one seems to answer them.

[1]http://www.sweetliberty.org/bulletins/terri/euda.htm and others, but that's the first I can find. now.
[2]http://www.lifenews.com/nat1182.html
[3]http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050213/D887B94G0.html
[4]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/maggiegallagher/mg20050322.shtml
[5]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/chuckcolson/cc20050311.shtml
[6]http://www.davidlimbaugh.com/mt/archives/2005/03/recovered_veget.html

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[info]fuzzyamy
2005-03-25 03:15 am UTC (link)
Oh, I'm in no way restating this information as direct, irrefutable evidence that in this particular case, the tube should be kept in. I just thought it was interesting commentary about (one of) the general topic(s): religion and end-of-life care.

I believe that given the high political drama attached to this case, people like myself will never be qualified enough of have enough 'unbiased' information to make the definitive deicison on this issue.

If you're interested in any other thoughts I had on the matter, feel free to read my journal entry about it.

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[info]jduffy1535
2005-03-25 11:43 pm UTC (link)
My understanding of the basic facts of the case mirror yours, but I have made a point of not studying the specifics. My point was that there are two questions. First, should Terry be starved to death? Second, does the law require that Terry be starved to death? They have very different answers. Should the feeding tube should be removed or not is not the same as whether the feeding tube can morally be removed or not.

In Terry's case I believe it is immoral to remove the feeding tube because the family never came to a consensus on the situation. Even if Terry wanted to die, I can't believe she would want to die badly enough to let her family suffer as they are now.

In the more general case of whether the feeding tube can ever be morally removed from a comatose/vegetative patient, I would agree with Meghan that the hope of recovery outweighs the burden, but that is a decision that is not mine to make.

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[info]meghatronn
2005-03-25 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Joe, from all I've read on this issue, I find your words the wisest.

As I am skeptical of trusting any article of commentary, I just went straight to the source:

"Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of "over-zealous" treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected."

--2278, Catechism of the Catholic Church

Now I would say that feeding someone, even though a tube, does not count as a "medical procedure." Nor would I classify it as "burdensome," as cooking for healthy children and balancing their food groups is a great deal more work, according to my experience. And as most of us, I question whether her husband's will is "reasonable" and his interests "legitimate".

Although I don't like or promote suffering, I think that there is a mystical value in it that we cannot always understand...our souls cleansed for the next challenge we face. Today is one of the Church's two remaining days of fasting. How appropriate as Terry ends her first week. Perhaps our opinions would carry more empathy if we all had to starve a little.

They all said, "Let him be crucified!" But [Pilate] said, "Why? What evil has he done?" They only shouted the louder, "Let him be crucified!" When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves." And the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children." Then he released Barabbas to them...

I don't know if it's true, but I heard once that someone who dies during the Easter season is taken immediately into heaven.

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[info]fuzzyamy
2005-03-25 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Do you know if the Catholic Church has any official statement on non-pulmonary death (i.e. brain death)? My intuition says that it must, because I remember reading in my Human Bodies and Parts as Property course that the Church approves of organ donation from living or dead donor, and dead donors would require some form of brain-death.

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[info]meghatronn
2005-03-27 06:18 am UTC (link)
I, too, am fairly certain that the Church does approve of that. However, I am hesitant to say until I find an official supportive document. I'll let you know if I do, as I plan to keep searching.

I have been surfing the Vatican website for answers and did find this interesting link regarding the persistent vegetative state:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pont-acd_life_doc_20040320_joint-statement-veget-state_en.html

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[info]lschiere
2005-03-27 05:31 pm UTC (link)
I have not seen anything more official than
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20040320_congress-fiamc_en.html

but as he is not speaking infallibly there, it is not *necessarily* more authoritative than the link that meghatronn found. It is certainly less detailed, but, I think, if anything, stronger in tone.

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[info]lschiere
2005-03-25 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Your reading of the Catechism corresponds well with mine, and it seems that the Vatican news paper's reading is on the same lines.[1] You also managed to express things far better than I did, going more straightly to the point, and staying more focused.

[1]http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0501622.htm among others mention it, the http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/home_eng.html does not seem to have archives online.

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[info]baranoouji
2005-03-25 08:18 pm UTC (link)
We talked a lot about this last night, but what I forgot to tell you is that you're very thoughtful.

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